lb:umineko
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lb:umineko [2025-10-07 18:59:46] – removed - external edit (Unknown date) 127.0.0.1 | lb:umineko [2025-10-11 09:50:03] (current) – [Why this breaks the Promise] ninjasr | ||
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+ | ====== Umineko no Naku Koro ni ====== | ||
+ | |||
+ | **うみねこのなく{{ruby|頃|ころ}}に**(When the Seagulls Cry) is a multi-media franchise that started with a [[lb:visual novels|Visual Novel]] but has since expanded into a bunch of other stuff, like an [[lb: | ||
+ | |||
+ | <div caution center-text> | ||
+ | |||
+ | **This article has unmarked spoilers, so keep that in mind if you want to go thru Umineko. Though I don't recommend it.** | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | {{tag> | ||
+ | |||
+ | ===== Review ===== | ||
+ | |||
+ | I'll note right now that I have not finished //Umineko //and probably never will. Thus this is an exception to my personal rule/ | ||
+ | |||
+ | Is //Umineko// bad? Yes, though I'll get into that into the dedicated [[# | ||
+ | |||
+ | Neither of those issues are desirable in a mystery story, where you need to keep track of details. There' | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now, putting aside objective issues with the storytelling...do I actually like //Umineko //or not? | ||
+ | |||
+ | Before reading Episode 6, I would have answered that I do like //Umineko //because while it's objectively broken in multiple ways...it was interesting to think about //how// it was broken. But it's also the case that a lot of the characters are legitimately interesting, | ||
+ | |||
+ | However, now that I've read thru Episodes 5 and 6 of the manga, I can safely say that I do not like // | ||
+ | |||
+ | Keep in mind that a lot of what you read looks a bit like this: | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP vstack card> | ||
+ | |||
+ | We entered the rose garden. It's been six years since I last saw it and it's even more beautiful than last time. | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character A | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “The rose garden is truly beautiful, isn't it? I can never get over how pretty it is.” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character B | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “The rose garden is beautiful yes, but it's been changed. You should have seen it in its rustic prime. Now it's in an overly organized, Western style.” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character A | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “Come now, don't be mean! The current look of the rose garden is still quite beautiful.” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character B | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “I never said the rose garden isn't beautiful now, I merely said it used to be more beautiful in the past.” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character C | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “The rose garden is really pretty isn't it~” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character D | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “Yes, the rose garden is very pretty, though it's annoying to have to walk thru it twice every day.” | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP header> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Character E | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | “I'd find that very fun!” | ||
+ | |||
+ | We were all carelessly talking about the beauty of the rose garden and it reminded me of how beautiful it had been all those years ago, and how it feels like nothing has changed. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Though the rose garden has increased in its beauty as compared to 6 years ago. I can tell that all of my relatives really like the rose garden and find it beautiful. | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | This isn't a literal extract from the VN, though it's based on something that happens in it. If I actually extracted the text, it would have been significantly longer, so just keep that in mind.\\ | ||
+ | |||
+ | It really doesn' | ||
+ | |||
+ | ===== Critique ===== | ||
+ | |||
+ | Yes, there' | ||
+ | |||
+ | There are several things in //Umineko //that are worthy of being criticized (negatively), | ||
+ | |||
+ | To be a bit clearer, the problem I'm focusing on isn't just that //Umineko //is incoherent, but that it's incoherent in a way that just so happens to insult the audience by breaking the promises it made to them. So, let's get into it! | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==== What Umineko Promises ==== | ||
+ | |||
+ | //Umineko //promises a mystery. Though some people argue that it promises an ‘anti-mystery’, | ||
+ | |||
+ | As a mystery story – in order to be a good mystery – //Umineko //needs to present a set of clues which allow the audience to solve the mystery prior to the reveal. This is for the sake of ‘fair play’ on the one hand, and the requirement for stories to be written properly.((: | ||
+ | |||
+ | Also, to be clear, //Umineko // | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==== How Umineko is Incoherent ==== | ||
+ | |||
+ | Since I stated that //Umineko //is narratively incoherent, I guess I should explain what I mean. To do that, I'll also need to explain //what// is going on in // | ||
+ | |||
+ | // | ||
+ | <div card vstack> | ||
+ | ^ Implied Layer((: | ||
+ | ^ Witch' | ||
+ | ^ The Games |||||||| | ||
+ | | Game 1 | ||
+ | ^ Ange's Layer | ||
+ | ^ Reality | ||
+ | </ | ||
+ | Now keep in mind that each of those (sans Reality and the top-most layer) is also further split something like this: | ||
+ | |||
+ | <WRAP vstack card center-text> | ||
+ | |||
+ | Fantasy/ | ||
+ | |||
+ | ‘Reality’ | ||
+ | |||
+ | </ | ||
+ | |||
+ | Something to be kept in mind is that layers above reality are built off of it. That means that they contain facts/hints that help tell us what really happened. We (the audience) probably never see the bottom-most layer. That isn't inherently wrong but...we' | ||
+ | |||
+ | These layers can end up getting incredibly complicated as well. There is a moment in the story (at least in Episode 6) where... | ||
+ | |||
+ | You're reading a debate between two witches((: | ||
+ | |||
+ | And just to be clear: the fantasy/ | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now, all of this wouldn' | ||
+ | |||
+ | However, //Umineko //has no means of telling the difference between fact and fiction. And since we never actually see that real layer, basically everything is suspect. | ||
+ | |||
+ | At this point // | ||
+ | |||
+ | === The Red Truths === | ||
+ | |||
+ | The Red Truths are unreliable and this becomes obvious once you realize the rules that actually govern them. | ||
+ | |||
+ | //Umineko //presents the Red Truths as being 100% true. In other words: facts that can’t be argued against. However, that isn't actually the case. A Red Truth is true as long as one of any possible interpretations is true. A Red Truth can also elaborate on a Red Truth, which helps to tell what is or isn't true. But the vast majority of Red Truths are never expanded upon. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now, let me elaborate on that “one of any possible interpretations” thing because it trips people up.\\ First, I'll quickly note that the story itself makes it clear that this is how the Red Truths work. Not only does the official solution require the Red Truths to be interpret-able, | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now let's explain it. Let's assume we have the following Red Truth: **Jessica killed Rudolph.** | ||
+ | |||
+ | Most people would assume that that means that Rudolph was killed by Jessica, right? However, because a Red Truth is fine as long as one of any possible interpretations is true...heh.\\ | ||
+ | |||
+ | Because of how much is up to interpretation, | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now, you may be tempted to argue that an individual statement doesn' | ||
+ | |||
+ | Let's make a list of Red Truths: | ||
+ | |||
+ | * **Janet died in the room.** | ||
+ | * **Janet was dead in the kitchen.** | ||
+ | * **Janet was killed by Katie.** | ||
+ | * **The murder was committed with a knife.** | ||
+ | * **Janet didn't die by suicide.** | ||
+ | * **Janet died at 12:00.** | ||
+ | * **Janet made tea at 1:00 PM.** | ||
+ | |||
+ | Now, keep in mind that the story itself reportedly does what I'm about to do. This may look pretty “case-closed”, | ||
+ | |||
+ | So...Janet and Katie are the same person. Katie didn't literally kill herself, she simply discarded the alternate identity. This is how Janet died in the ‘room’. While the room and the kitchen are not the same room, Katie //did// relocate to the kitchen which is how it's possible for ‘Janet’ to be dead in the kitchen.\\ | ||
+ | |||
+ | See how a list of Red Truths doesn' | ||
+ | |||
+ | The Red Truth existing is worse than it not existing. Because it's a subjective statement that presents itself as purely objective. | ||
+ | |||
+ | This is also definitely accidental (or rather unintentional) on the part of Ryukishi07.((: | ||
+ | === Incoherence === | ||
+ | So what is it that makes Umineko incoherent? | ||
+ | |||
+ | Everything about Umineko is up to interpretation. And I do mean // | ||
+ | ==== Why this breaks the Promise ==== | ||
+ | This section will be much shorter because it's quite conclusive. | ||
+ | |||
+ | //Umineko// breaks its promise to the audience – of being a mystery story with solvable mysteries – by being narratively incoherent. Because what happens in Umineko can be interpreted any way you desire – because there is // | ||
+ | |||
+ | That isn't even mentioning the fact that Umineko breaks the rules of fair play – it cites the [[lb:Knox Decalogue]] but the official solution violates it. Even if we consider that the Knox Decalogue isn't absolute, Umineko still fails to be fair because everything can be interpreted however you want. | ||
+ | |||
+ | At best it misleads the audience with the Red Truths and at worst it straight-up lies to them. Some people might think that insulting the audience by lying to them is a good (or neutral) thing and those people are, frankly, not very smart. | ||
+ | ===== Trivilinks ===== | ||
+ | * [[vndb> | ||
+ | * Various Links | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * Reviews by kanjieater on VNDB | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * [[https:// | ||
+ | * There are a number of other issues that I noticed which only make //Umineko// worse. One of those was the question “Is magic real?” Either way you answer that question, // | ||
+ | * The way I interpret this (on a meta level) is that <fc var(--main-red)> | ||
+ | * Another issue with the Red Truths is the fact that once you know, you //know// and thus you wonder how characters can be so colossally stupid that they don't make obvious arguments regarding the interpretation of several Red Truths. | ||
+ | * Want an example? In Episode 5, Erika is declared the ‘detective’ which means that under the Knox Commandments, | ||
+ | * I'll lay out how I went thru //Umineko// here: | ||
+ | * I started by watching the anime. | ||
+ | * Around episode 5 I decided to also start playing thru the VN since I didn't want to miss anything. | ||
+ | * After I played it for around 5 hours, I decided to quit the VN because I found the writing style deeply irritating and repetitive. | ||
+ | * I went back to the anime and continued watching it until I hit the end. Around episode 21 I started to feel the quality was dropping. | ||
+ | * After that, I decided to start the manga Episodes 1 & 5 in parallel. The reason why was to make sure I didn't miss anything. | ||
+ | * After finishing Episode 1 and reading Episode 2 for a while, I decided to check a comparison between the anime and the VN because nothing of significance seemed to have been removed from the anime. I was (mostly) right, so I decided to focus on Episode 5. | ||
+ | * I finished Episode 5 and moved onto Episode 6. Around here I started getting irritated by // | ||
+ | * During all of the above stages, I did glance at the wiki and a few reviews but it was during Episode 6 that I stopped caring about spoilers completely. Thus I know basically what happens and I wasn't very pleased with what I saw. Though I decided to keep going. | ||
+ | * Well, I decided to keep going for a while but Episode 6 //really got on my nerves// particularly because, being aware of the issues, it was hard to get invested into anything. | ||
+ | * One of the reasons I became curious about //Umineko// is because I found out Ryukishi07 was to write the new [[lb:silent hill]] game (ƒ). But since experiencing // | ||
+ | * I think my proofreading caught most of the obvious issues, so I'll just pretend it's fine until someone points an issue out. | ||
+ | * I noticed another potential problem with Umineko: its rendering of the [[lb: | ||